Down the Wormhole

Episode 79
In part 12 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Dr Elizabeth Fernandez. She is an astrophysicist, science communicator, and host of the SparkDialog podcast. Her podcast is on science and society, and tells the story of science in our lives, and the connection of science with things like religion, philosophy, history, culture, ethics, art, and the future. If you enjoy Down the Wormhole, you will definitely love SparkDialog. Check it out at www.sparkdialog.com or wherever you get your podcasts. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors. 
 
Zack Jackson 00:05
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week we are exploring how that relationship gets worked out in real life with one of the current Sinai and Synapses, fellows, Sinai and Synapses is a two year fellowship committed to elevating the discourse surrounding religion and science and where the five of us first met. So without further ado, our guest today is an astrophysicist, science communicator and host of The Spark dialogue podcast. Her podcast is on science and society and tells the story of science in our lives and the connection of science with things like religion, philosophy, history, culture, ethics, art in the future, if you enjoy down the wormhole, and if you're listening, I hope you do. You will definitely love spark dialogue. So welcome to the podcast. Elizabeth Fernandez. Thank you very much. It's wonderful to have you here. We've been talking about both having you here for an interview and also doing crossover episodes for what feels like yours. So it's good to finally get to chat with you. It's also good to have a fellow science podcaster on the podcast. So maybe we could start out by telling the good folks at home a little bit about what spark dialogue is all about, like what made you want to start it? What keeps you going? What sorts of things are you doing on there?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 01:30
Yeah, sure. So I started spark dialogue about I guess, six years ago now. And so I have almost 100 episodes, I'm getting there quickly. And we talk about all different things in science and technology. But the thing that kind of sets us apart from a lot of the science podcasts is to see the connections of science with our everyday life. So a lot of times we talk about ethics or philosophy, talk about a religion a lot that we talk about history, art, culture, and all how all those things relate to science. And so basically, the idea is to, to show that science isn't just, you know, something that's being done in the lab somewhere. And it's something that is like it's affecting our lives every day, and affecting our lives in really interesting ways. And sort of making people think about those interesting connections between science and other different areas of their life that
 
Zack Jackson 02:28
might engage new people into the science conversation. And congratulations on almost being at 100 episodes. That is not easy. I thought it was a lot easier until I started a podcast and my goodness. Thank you just launched 93 was the last one which was
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 02:48
Yeah, that sounds right.
 
Zack Jackson 02:49
It's very interesting talk with john van sloten. about gratitude and COVID tide, which he was on our podcast as well. Those of you who may remember this somewhat scientific mistake patent Canadian pastor perpetual optimist, it's a it's a wonderful episode that you should listen to the most latest one, you've covered so many different types of topics in these 93 episodes. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty impressive how much of a generalist you're able to be for someone who is also a very much a specialist in in the world of astronomy, but you kind of have to be right if you're a science communicator in the public sphere.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 03:35
So and that's what's that's what's fun about it, that's, I love, you know, waking up in the morning and not knowing what I'm going to learn today, learning about new things every day, it's a lot of fun, as also allows me to make a lot of different connections between different fields, which like, you know, if you're, if you're a specialist really deep into your and that's what I used to be really deep into my own field, you don't really know what's going on a lot in other fields. And it's nice to be able to see the connections between different fields and and see what you can extrapolations you can make How do you kind of plan out what's next? There are tons of people doing really interesting research out there. And so I kind of just, I kind of look for the people and I look for what they're doing. Because they know, they know what's the interesting questions in their own field are. And so you know, I go to conferences, I read a lot a lot, and kind of seeking out the people who would be interesting to talk to, and then I talked to them and see what they're working on and see what excites them. And you know, most of these topics I went to been able to come up with on my own because I don't know everything. And these, these are the people that they're really smart in their field and, and there's a lot of people working on interdisciplinary work in their own way. And so that's I look for look for the people.
 
Zack Jackson 05:02
What do you think that we should be talking about in the public sphere that we're not really focusing on right now?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 05:11
That's a good question. I think a lot of things we are talking about to some extent, but we're not necessarily talking about it in a really broad sense. One of those that comes to mind is, of course, climate change. Everyone's talking about climate change. But a lot of times, it's a science question, or it's a policy question, which of course it is. But I think people don't realize how much of a moral question it is, how much of a spiritual or religious question it is. Climate change is really one of those areas that touches everything, every aspect of our life. And especially for people who are living on the other side of the world, who are in you know, places like Sub Saharan Africa, or Bangladesh, or the South Pacific, they're living with these issues. And for them, it's like, it's a cultural issue. It's a, it's an issue they live with every single day. And, you know, we as privileged people in the West don't necessarily always see that. Another one is just like, ethics and technology, like a lot of people are very excited, who work in the tech fields, they're very excited to develop the next up and coming tech, but there's not necessarily a lot of talk of the ethics behind it. And so there are a lot of people who do go and they say, Okay, what, what do we have to look with what we have to be concerned with, and they're trying to engage with the people who are developing tech to make sure that the tech that is developed is, is, to some degree, you know, safe is where we're thinking about issues that we should be thinking of, and how it, how it affects people culturally, how it affects, like, development of children, all sorts of things, like all things we should be
 
Zack Jackson 07:05
thinking, didn't Google just fire its ethics team for questioning Google's ethics?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 07:12
It is, it is a thorny issue, because a lot of people are afraid to bring up what the ethics may be if it's threatens making money. And you know, a lot of these companies, that's what their goal is, is to make money. And luckily, for us, there are people who are concerned with other things besides just how much is on their on their budget. But yeah, I mean, a lot of times these questions definitely come into conflict with with the bottom line.
 
Zack Jackson 07:42
So you've done a lot of interfaith work, as well as interdisciplinary work and international work. You're kind of an inter specialist. And when it comes to issues of technology, and of ethics, one of the questions that comes up sometimes is whose ethics who kind of gets to be the gatekeeper in determining what is and is not good in terms of the technology that we create the society we're making? Do you have any, any thoughts, any insights into that power dynamic moving forward? And
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 08:21
yeah, that definitely is one of the things that people think about because, you know, every world religion has a different set of ethics. But at the same time, there's a lot of overlap between religions. But that is a question that people have to take into account, especially like, let's say you're marketing a product in very different places, you're marketing a product in the Middle East, or in Europe, or the United States, or wherever. A lot of that will have to do with the local area that you're dealing with. So if you're planning on marketing, something in the Middle East, you should get people who are experts of what people actually think in the Middle East. But it is tricky, and that's, that's why it's important to have a lot of dialogue with people because it is it is one of those things that there are multiple opinions and it's not fact it's not like science and which which is a fact you have to you have to talk to people and that's why dialogue is important in instances like this, yeah.
 
Zack Jackson 09:31
So before you were masterful science communicator, you were an astrophysicist astronomer. I'm I'm I'm still not great with the the titles, but you did.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 09:47
As long as you don't call me. Don't call me an astrologer.
 
Zack Jackson 09:53
You were one of the match. I you looked at pretty stars in This guy with big telescopes, that's I'll go there. I know that much. Can you can you tell us a little bit about what that work looked like? What you were studying what you've you've worked on?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 10:14
Sure. I'm just gonna go back and say that one last sentence cuz I called myself in this or as long as you don't call me an astrologist, which isn't a word. Yeah, so I'll say it again. As long as you don't call me an astrologer. There you go. Yeah, so I've done, I've done a lot of different things. In astronomy, most of my work on telescopes have actually been telescopes in space. So like, for example, the Herschel Space Telescope is, is a lot like Hubble, except it looks in the infrared. And so I did a lot of my work with that. I've also been observing several places, some small, some small telescopes around the world. Also, I went to Mauna Kea in Hawaii and observed there, the Vla in New Mexico, that's a big array of radio dishes. For if you've seen the movie contact, that's that's where I was at. But actually, most of my work was actually theoretical. So I didn't always go out to the telescope at night, I was doing a lot of my work on computers making models and simulations of what the universe might be like. So my work is talking about our was my work was talking about what the first few generations of stars and galaxies in the universe would look like. And the thing is, when you're looking at stars that are forming many, many, many, billions of years ago, there's a big difference between what stars look like then and what stars look like now. And the main difference is because stars that are forming now, they have all different types of things in them. They have, of course, hydrogen, helium, but they also have elements like carbon, iron, silicon, all these types of things that we see around us. But all of those heavier elements beyond helium, and a little bit of lithium, were formed actually, in stars and in supernova explosions. So if you go back in time to before there were any stars, that means that first generation of stars would only have hydrogen and helium. So the question is, what were the stars? Like? How did that affect the first few generations of stars. And so I worked with a lot of different people to look at. I worked with a lot of different people to develop models of what we should expect these stars to look like. And I worked in the infrared. I also worked with people who are working with a large Radio Telescope Array in Europe, which is called low far, and that looks at the radio emission from the areas around the stars, and just sort of kind of piecing together the puzzle of what the stars might be like. And it's tricky, because they're really, really far away. You know, as, as your listeners probably know, the farther away you look, the farther back in time you're looking. So in order to see the first stars that are forming, of course, you have to look very, very, very far away. And the problem with this is that there's a lot of stuff in the way there's, there's stuff in our own solar system, there's foreground stars, there's foreground galaxies, there's lots of stuff in space, it doesn't, it's not just empty. And so you have to figure out, you have to model all of those different things, to subtract that to find this very, very, very faint signal that's coming from the first stars, many, many, many light years away.
 
Zack Jackson 13:47
So you're basically finding the signals that are finding empty spaces between stars and galaxies and whatnot that have traveled all the way from the beginning to us.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 14:01
So I was looking at the signal from the stars themselves, the signal from the galaxies themselves, and also the signal from the gas around the galaxies. And then and then is that answer your question? I'm not exactly sure if
 
Zack Jackson 14:18
the gap now you've got me in the way that, like, there are things in the way you can't look there or can't look through the sun to get to what's Far, far back. So like, if you're trying to look for, say, the cosmic microwave background radiation, I get that in the right order.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 14:43
Yes.
 
Zack Jackson 14:46
You basically have to look for the signals that are not being interrupted by the stars and planets and things that are in the way are there's radiation that's going through some of those things. To us, or like how do we how do we cancel out the things that are in the way to see that far back in time?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 15:08
Yeah, so that's very good question. And actually bringing up the cosmic microwave background is a really good analogy, because a lot of people are more familiar with that. So that's essentially exactly what we're looking at, except we're looking at the sky in the infrared. And this would. And so in order to see the stars that are forming, at the very beginning of the epic of stars, you do have to take into account everything in the way. And so it is, this light is going through dust, it's going through gas, it's going through galaxies that are too faint to see individually. So we have to figure out how many of these galaxies are out there. It's going through all sorts of stuff that we might not even know yet. And so that's part of the tricky part is trying to figure out well, is this light from the first stars? Or is it from something else that's closer to us that we just don't know, that we just don't see. And that's where the modeling comes in, is, that's why I was doing so much intensive modeling, to figure out, Okay, if these stars had these properties, what would this light look like? If it had this property? What would this light look like? And when you begin to combine a lot of different types of properties, a lot of different types of models with multiple types of observations, then you begin to narrow down what could potentially be from early stars and what could be potentially from something else? That's in the way. Wow.
 
Zack Jackson 16:38
feels a lot like archaeology. Scaring away all the dust and looking for the dinosaur bones underneath. That's this is exciting. What what what did the early universe look like? What did those early stars look like?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 16:57
So, in this area, there's still a lot of unknowns. And that's sort of what we're trying to piece together is like, how big the stars were? How they ended their lives. So you know, in our local universe, we see stars explode in supernovas. Did this this happen? If like, let's say these first stars were really, really huge. Then there are all sorts of questions like, Where did the supermassive black holes in the center of galaxies come from? That's a really good question. Where, how did how do galaxies form in the first place? Like did did? Did we form galaxies first? And then these clumps of gas form stars? Or did the stars kind of congregate together? First, and then form galaxies? What kind of over the galaxies? like are they? Are they really small? Or were they were they bigger? Like all of these different types of questions we can ask? And yeah, that's, that's what's what's so tricky. There's, there's so many different things that we you can look at so many variables you can change. And it's a, it's like a laboratory that's, we can't see today we can we can look at our universe today and kind of make some guesses. But there are so many things that are different about the early universe that we just don't know.
 
Zack Jackson 18:23
Yeah, and I mean, like you said, this is evolving so quickly and changing so quickly. And there's so many new, I imagine that things like advances in computing power, is helping to advance this and new new telescopes on Earth and in space. Is there a particular telescope that is in the works that you're super excited about?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 18:48
There's a lot of them. Of course, a lot of people probably heard JW st, which is sort of the successor to Hubble. And that should be able to see quite, it'll make it'll make the pictures from Hubble look, dated. And we should be able to see quite far back in time as well with this JW S T. And then there's lots of things being done. Probably people haven't heard as much about what's being done in the radio or in the submillimetre range. And there's lots of great telescopes all around the world, all different types of arrays, that can also look back in time. And then if you really want to go out there, you could look at the gravitational wave telescopes and gravitational telescopes, they can see even farther back then, than lights. And is this technology that still has a long way to go, but when we be we could be able to see even farther back than the cosmic microwave background, then we could figure out what our really infinite universe was like
 
Zack Jackson 19:49
we could see further back than that.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 19:53
With a gravitation Oh my goodness. You can you can look even farther back. Yeah, that that is technology that is still alive. Anyway, but you know, within nano within 100 years, maybe Wow.
 
Zack Jackson 20:07
Wow. Okay. So you think within a couple of generations, we could get frighteningly close to being able to see the beginning of the universe. Now, not like the actual beginning, beginning, but like very close to the beginning, because we're already able to see pretty close to the beginning, right?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 20:27
So yeah, the as far back, as we can see, with the cosmic microwave background, that's as far back we can see with light, that's when the universe was a baby, but it was still 400,000 years old, around 400,000 years old. So that's a lot of time that we don't have information from as far as observations, we have a lot of theoretical ideas. But as far as observations, we don't have any direct observations from before then. And so that's where gravitational waves might come in.
 
Zack Jackson 20:57
Wow, I guess you're right, that the ones the the telescopes, and all that are dealing in wavelengths and, and whatnot that are not visual are not as appealing to the general public, because they don't end up on the astronomy picture of the day website, like the way that the Hubble ones do?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 21:17
Well, the, the issue with the cosmic microwave background is, before the cosmic microwave background, the universe was actually opaque. It was so dense that photons couldn't travel freely to us. There, it's like a, it's like a big photon soup, where photons are just bouncing off each other. And so light that's coming from before then can't reach us, because there are so many photons in the way that it will bounce off another photon before it gets to us. And it's only the only reason we can see the cosmic microwave background is that's the instant when the universe became less dense enough that photons were able to stream to us directly from that surface. Wow. So that's why we can't see before then, because the universe is so dense that not even light could really get anywhere. Without bouncing.
 
Zack Jackson 22:20
You're blowing my mind. Thanks a lot. It's just amazing to think about being able to look that far in the past. And like when you're saying that light couldn't reach us back then I think to myself, well weren't, weren't we in it back then. But now we're out. But we are seeing the back and the end when it was in the
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 22:53
Yeah, that's that's the that's the thing, when you come this to astronomy is you you can't think of of you have to think of time is another dimension, essentially, where we're far into the future, which is far away timewise. From what we're seeing, so time is, is you could think of it as a dimension. When you when you think about these problems. Yeah.
 
Zack Jackson 23:16
As many times as I've read about and heard explained, the expansion of the universe, it all still sounds like magic. So in your studying of the stars, the earliest stars, the beginnings of the universe, has your particular faith, spirituality, religion, whatever it may be for you. Has has, have you found any insights from from the work that you've done scientifically?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 23:51
Yeah, I have quite a bit. So it's, I think the biggest one for me, is looking at the sheer size of the universe. And when you really get to learning about how big the universe is, and how detailed it is, and how long it was around before humans even existed, it, it The scale is literally something we just can't comprehend. Our little brains just can't comprehend it. And that's also true when you look at the complexity of physics, like when you see how complex physics is. You see how complex sciences, it's just amazing. And the universe didn't have to be that complex. For us to exist, the universe science doesn't have to be that complex for us to exist. As far as as far as from the point of view of God, let's say. So the fact that it is what does that tell us about God tells us maybe he has a lot of time on his hands. But it also is kind of neat because for me, it's like It, it's it's a way that I kind of look at it for people like me, God is giving a big puzzle to, like, how does it all work? How does it all fit together? And I think that part of it is, he just likes to give us something amazingly complex to ponder and to view. And of course, when you create something that's complex, that means the person who is creating it has to be even more complex than the person, the thing that's being created. And so that tells you how complex God is. So for me, that's sort of the insight I get from it. That's at least one.
 
Zack Jackson 25:41
If you don't mind, what what is your religious background?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 25:46
Yeah, so I'm a Catholic. And growing up, right, being raised as a Catholic, we were very pro science. I don't know how many people know this. But the the person who came up with the idea of the Big Bang, George lamotta, he was a Jesuit priest. And so there's a lot of very pro science sentiments in the Catholic Church, and this is one of the one of the areas that it shows up. I mean, we have the Vatican Observatory in Rome, that's doing a lot of great science work. And there's a lot of a lot of priests who are astronomers, there's a lot of astronomers who work with priests and the other way around. So it's, there's a lot of conversation between the astronomy field and religious field.
 
Zack Jackson 26:37
We've gotten multiple messages from people on the podcast, saying, we really appreciate your, your thoughts and your insights, but you need more Catholics. There's no Catholic perspective on your podcast. And I'll always say the same thing. Like, yeah, I know. Right. And the Catholics have done such good work, how many bodies heavenly bodies are named after Jesuits. We often just think like, at least we in the Protestant world will be like, well, Catholics. Galileo, they hate science.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 27:16
Yeah, it's, it's, that was a long time ago. It's, it's, it's a, it's a misunderstanding, you know. But for I mean, in general, like growing up as a Catholic, we're very pro science. So, you know, I've been very encouraged in my love of science. And that's great.
 
Zack Jackson 27:36
You said a little bit about how your scientific work has helped to illuminate your spirituality a little bit? Are there are the ways where you see it going the other way where your faith or religion or spirituality affects the way that you do science?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 27:55
I've never been asked that question before. I think one of the biggest ways is, like we talked a bit before about the ethics. Now, astronomy and ethics, there's not a lot necessarily of overlap. But in the other areas that I've looked at, as far as like, looking at AI, looking at, like I mentioned before climate change, looking at to science in our everyday lives, medicine, that, that I think there's a lot more crossover there. As far as my, my faith affecting that. And as far as, as far as just doing science in general, particularly astronomy, I think that my philosophy and my faith sort of shows me that to be humble, in what I know. And this is a big thing, when you're looking when you're making models of the early universe, where, you know, you could have your favorite model, but chances are, it's wrong. And and sort of to be humble in that and to see okay, where could I have gone wrong? Where could I What can I change? How am I not seeing the whole picture? How am I? What kind of things could I think of, so it sort of brings a sense of humbleness, it's brings a sense of more maybe creativity in a way that that if I just was doing the science by itself and not thinking of, you know, just trying to get an answer. You know, I might not be having open of a mind to particular particularly different ideas or ways to approach the problem.
 
Zack Jackson 29:46
That is a very good insight. So, on a completely different note. You are a fellow lover of unusual musical instruments, correct? Yes, yes. Tell me about your favorites.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 30:02
The one I'm learning now, since the pandemic has started, I have acquired a hammer dulcimer. Oh, hammer dulcimer. Yes. It's something I've wanted to learn for about a decade. And so I am very slowly learning it. I wish it was a little bit faster. But unfortunately, I thought it would have a lot of time with a pandemic started. But having small children at home, you don't really have a lot of time during a pandemic. But at least I have one now, and and I get to play it. And I do know a couple songs. And that's been a lot of fun. But yeah, I like lots of I like collecting lots of different musical instruments. One of my favorite memories from my college days was going to somebody's house for Thanksgiving. And they had just a big basket of musical instruments, all sorts of things like thumb organs and, and Morocco's and, you know, things that are easy to play, but she just passed it out of one take an instrument and everyone just made music together. And so a lot of times I collect little things like that. I have, like a steel drum. I have the Morgans, I have a Irish pennywhistle things that are easy to play, and, you know, just just to have that love of music around, just to have people playing. That's great.
 
Zack Jackson 31:25
Yeah, I love it. I got a I'm a mountain dulcimer. That was okay. It's made by a company called seagull and it's built like a guitar so you can play it standing up. And I I needed a slide guitar for a song that I was working on. But I don't have a like a dough bro. Like a slide guitar. So I discovered that if I use my mountain dulcimer, and socket from a socket wrench on my finger, that I can turn that into a pretty convincing sounding slide guitar. It is always useful for random instruments around your house. I love it. Yes.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 32:07
Yes. Also, I also play guitar and I play piano as well. Those are a little bit less than less exotic instruments.
 
Zack Jackson 32:15
A little bit more versatile.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 32:18
Yes, yes. People don't ask you what is that strange thing that you're playing?
 
Zack Jackson 32:22
What do you have a an instrument that you just want you love you just want to get one day if you are given some large amount of money.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 32:33
Well, that's my hammer dulcimer. I've been wanting to play that for about a decade. And now I have a I have a small one. But I have one on my wish list that is multiple 1000s of dollars in one day, one day, hopefully I will own that one too. Once I'm a little bit better. I mean, you can justify it and have a little bit more spare money. podcasting doesn't make a lot of money, unfortunately. So
 
Zack Jackson 32:56
no.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 32:59
No, it's a bummer.
 
Zack Jackson 33:00
This is my retirement plan. I reconsider. Well, if you ever come across as a hurdy gurdy, let me know if you've seen these old medieval instruments with a crank.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 33:16
I I've seen them in Europe before fabulous. Yeah.
 
Zack Jackson 33:22
So what what made you want to apply for the for the Sinai and Synapses fellowship? What what drew drew you to it? How'd you find out about it?
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 33:33
Rabbi Jeff was actually on my podcast. A while ago, I talked to him about the Jewish perspective of evolution. Believe I was right. And, and so I, you know, one of the areas I look at is the area of overlap between science and religion, and a lot of different ways, different different religions to not just Catholic or not just Christianity, but also all different religions approach science and what that overlap is. And so when I found out about that fellowship, it just seemed like a natural fits, but also a really good opportunity to meet other people who are working on this. Because, you know, unless unless you really look, it's kind of hard to find people sometimes, you know, we're not, we're not a very vocal crowd, or I mean, I'm hoping to change that. But and many people are hoping to change that. But you know, people, they, they hear a lot about the conflict between science and religion, and they miss the fact that there are so many people who are working in science and religion, but not necessarily on the fact that are they compatible, which is which is an important question. But there's so much more to the dialogue than that. There's, there's a lot of really rich discussion we can have if we begin to step away from you know, just the sheer fact are they compatible to you know, what we can actually learn what we can actually Come up with together when we just have discussions.
 
Zack Jackson 35:02
Yeah. It's why the work that you're doing is so important. This is the reason why we started this podcast was because we were like, this is such important work. And all of us in this fellowship, the first day that we met together, we realized, we all feel alone in our context, but we're not. We're just, we just don't have a common group to rally around. Uh, I don't know what what it is. So we thought podcasting is a good way to get the word out there. It's accessible. It's easy. And we found that to be true with so many people who have joined the community as well, that actually the last review that we got on iTunes said, I'm not the only one. And it was like, Yeah, no, you're not. There's a, there's a whole lot of us out here, despite the fact that there's only like three podcasts on Apple that are about this. There are so many of us. And I think the work of translating the work coming from the ivory tower into like, applicable practical and practical conversations is so important. Yes, and you do have a knack for, for doing that for communicating all of these really complicated topics that are so vastly diverse, in in really easy to understand ways. I do enjoy your podcast a lot. Thank you. So at the end of our conversation here, then I want to ask you the question that I've asked everyone so far, which is, what is one thing that you wish everyone knew about the world? Yes, I've
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 36:45
been, I've been thinking about this preparing myself.
 
Zack Jackson 36:50
I love that you did your homework.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 36:56
You know, you can look at this in a scientific way. And you could look at this in a non scientific way. But for me, I think that it's important. That's when we look at each other. We look at people around the world, we look at people in our community, who on the surface look very different from us, or who seemed very different than us. We're actually not that different. When you look at evolution, you see how, how much work we have in common, how much debt different communities of people are basically the same. When you're going through something that you just feel like I'm the only person in the world that is suffering through this. And then you're not, you're just there are so many people who know exactly what you're feeling, or who have been there before. Even with cultures that are different, like when I did a lot of interfaith work, and people have these, these still very pervasive biases against people of different religions. And when you really look at it, we're there are some differences. But a lot of those differences are on the surface, when it comes down to it deep down. We're all real, pretty the same. We all we're all we all go through the same problems, we all feel the same things. And if people realize that, I think you know, there wouldn't be any problems in the world.
 
Zack Jackson 38:19
Love it. Thank you for that. Thank you for spending this time to come on here and and talk with us. For all of you at home. Her podcast is spark dialogue. It's one word, SP a rk DIAL l o g. And that's available wherever you get your podcasts as well as spark dialogue, calm if you'd like to learn more about what she does and what she has done and what she cares about and all of the good things that she's doing.
 
Elizabeth Fernandez 38:52
Well, thank you very much for inviting me.
 
Zack Jackson 38:53
Absolutely. My pleasure.

Episode 78
In Part 3 of our AI miniseries, we explore the new reality of digital learning. Computers, video, and algorithmic teaching aids are here to stay, so how can we make sure that they are used to help everyone, not just further the education gap? What exciting possibilities await for individual thriving? What hidden dangers lurk beneath the surface of our shiny new tech? Can gamification help you finally finish writing that book you've been meaning to write? Let's find out! 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors. 
 
Zack Jackson 00:05
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are
 
Rachael Jackson 00:15
Rabbi Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel congregation in Hendersonville, North Carolina. And if I had a robot do any chore, it would be cleaning up my child's bathroom.
 
Ian Binns 00:30
Ian Binns, associate professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And if I had to have a robot replace any chore, probably cleaning the showers.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 00:45
Kendra Holt-Moore, PhD student at Boston University. And if I could have a robot, do my chores, I would definitely have a kitchen robot to do mostly dishes. And like, if they could cook, that would also be great. Just like kitchen in general, cover everything.
 
Zack Jackson 01:08
Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading, Pennsylvania, and I would get a robotic lawnmower, which is a real thing that actually exists, like a Roomba for your yard. And knowing myself, I'd probably get bored with it, and then modify it and try to turn it into a battle bot.
 
Ian Binns 01:32
That's very cool.
 
01:34
So, uh,
 
Ian Binns 01:36
today, we're going to talk about AI and education. And then let that go where it goes. Because as I said, yesterday, we're all educators in some form or fashion. So I thought it'd be kind of interesting to see what some people's take is on AI and education. And while looking for things to share with you. on just a couple things to read, I realized that I was being very picky, and not wanting to select things that were written prior to the start of the pandemic. Because I feel like things would be very different. I think I may have found one or two that were, but I was very surprised by some of the things that we found about AI and education that were written in October of last year. So in the heart of the pandemic, and teachers teaching from home or from school with students not in the classroom. So kind of wanted to just briefly talk about technology, in education and AI and how my experiences especially as a science educator with technology, in AI and in education, that and then obviously, please jump in as usual. One of the things that I've noticed with throughout my career with technology education is why I actually pulled away from doing research on technology is because of how fast the technology changes and rolls out that the ability to determine its effectiveness in a classroom takes significantly longer than the newest tool. Right. So. So I purposely pulled away from the technology because it just got to be too much too quickly. And, and not as well versed in the use of something simple like your iPhone, or smartphone as as others. And now I find myself getting excited every time I see a new app thinking Oh, yeah, let me use that. But then wondering, will it actually work or not? And so when you actually look up to see what are other educators, saying, you'd still have those two camps, ones who embrace it immediately. And then the others who are very hesitant, and then you may even have some who say no, don't use it at all. And so a few things I shared that I wanted to bring up is something from was at the Brookings Institute shared something about why we need to rethink education, artificial intelligence age, but actually we pull up something different real quick, sorry, is from this past October, written by a contributor for Forbes magazine, and his he's called the AI guy. And when talking about AI in education, this is the one where I said you may need the bleeper back because he referred to classrooms as the pedagogical Dark Ages, which made me really excited. And then he says, of all the areas of life where Intel artificial intelligence will have an impact, the biggest might well being education. This is because learning is so important. And also because current provision often leaves a lot to be desired. This is not generally the fault of teachers, which definitely aren't a big cue. There's one belief they are the active ingredient in today's education system, but they are expensive and not scalable, that are the second you. So in most countries, they're undervalued and burdened by absurd paperwork. They're also human, which means they are They are variable. Think back to your own school days, how many of your teachers were positively inspirational, as many as 10%? How many were unacceptable, that probably leaves the large majority, somewhere between okay and mediocre. One of the tragedies of modern education is that constructive feedback for teachers is rarely given or sought, there was the third view. So this is clearly someone who believes that AI will save the world of education at least. And, sorry, I'm gonna keep going on my tangents because this one really pissed
 
Rachael Jackson 05:37
me got under your skin. Whatever.
 
Ian Binns 05:39
They did it, I read it, the kids were sitting there watching cartoons last night while reading this, and I was looking at and I just kept mouthing it. And saying, I did say, very loudly, you know what, I really wish I could call them up and say, you know, what, why don't you come try? do this work, jackass. And John's goes to what is jack asked me
 
06:03
a teachable moment. Anyway, he
 
Ian Binns 06:04
does have a few few good things to share, like the idea of this whole notion of flipped classrooms where students get a watch, like the this is more for college, I believe, but you know, watching the lecture ahead of time, and then doing more work inside the class, hands on type work, and those things are good. You know, I like that. He talks a lot about online learning, which again, this was written in and October, right. So he was a little bit of critique about online learning, and then talked about those who are who are positioned to do it best. Which were already those companies and organizations who have the infrastructure there for it. But I think, you know, instead of me continuously go on my soapbox here, one of the things I'm just curious about is, you know, and others even refer to remote learning as a major challenge is how is it we could see AI being a positive force for things like education.
 
Rachael Jackson 06:59
So I can jump in here with two perspectives. One, that and I appreciate you saying that we're all educators. Because sometimes I, I teach a lot, but sometimes I forget to see myself in that role, or with that, that titling. So I do a lot of teaching. So that's one lens that I'm using, but also I have a child in first grade, and in public school. And so that's another place where I'm seeing it, which are two completely different educational worlds, frankly, in this way, when you're talking AI, specifically as separate from technology, it sounds like, how are you? Right? Because technology might just be like, right now, we are all, excuse me, goodness. We are all on a computer using a microphone, and a particular website. None of these things I would classify as a AI specifically, but as technology because it's not an artificial intelligence. I mean, someone certainly had to create these things. But it's not it is not dynamic. It's really these tools that we're using are very passive. And for me that passivity lends it to be a technology piece, rather than rather than an AI piece. So I think that in education we need to use and can use technology, way better than we are now. Right, that that I believe, how AI can be done. I really see that in terms of I don't want to use the word testing, assessing, though, right? How is this for you? Right? Is this fun for you? and using that, using those skills that AI can provide to react and learn from the user input? To say, Okay, this is where I think we're at, and they can be done in any way. I'm not saying that this needs to be a standardized test. But in a, let's play a game, and where is this game going to go, we can look at what strategy you can provide, or that can then be used in these quiet times, especially from a public school standpoint, where, from my perspective, both when I was a child, you know, 30 some years ago, and now it I, I would never want that job. Frankly, it just looks too hard, especially in elementary school, but it seems like that the teachers have to teach to the middle or the bottom third,
 
Ian Binns 09:38
at times it can,
 
Rachael Jackson 09:40
especially at these lower grades where there's a big there can be a big emotional difference in the lower grades. And so, from an educational standpoint, great so everyone has the free time. That can be the okay let's use AI as an individual so that the teacher can then work with the individuals or teach the whole class the concepts and then The individual can run with it using AI plus technology is how is one of those ways that I see that being used in public school and really elementary sized, or elementary aged? Sorry, I'm not being very clear today. So that's, that's my gut reaction. And I think that the person that wrote that article probably hasn't spent a lot of time in the classroom, and doesn't have a whole lot of passion. And one of the things that I want, I wanted to add to this sort of in, not in commiseration, but in just as another statement, I was teaching on Wednesday, and I was teaching something and I teach teachers, right, there's, there's, I've got a lot of retirees in my congregation, and one of them happens to be a former physics, high school teacher. And I was talking about my son and his teacher, and this person said, at the upper grades, the idea is to teach curriculum. And at the lower grades, the idea is to teach the person and that it's really flip flopped, that the teacher in the first grade teacher really has to change and adapt depending on who's in front of them. Whereas the older, right, the older grades, right, high school and stuff, don't change their curriculum that much depending on who's in front of them. And they'd still have to have the compassion and the empathy and some of the social work and all of that stuff that goes along with being a teacher. But the curriculum itself is the focus as opposed to the child itself being the focus or themselves being the focus. So just want to acknowledge that there's when we talk about education, I don't think we can lump it all together. Even when we talk about public schools, we can't lump first graders and 12th graders together, we just we can't they they learn differently. And the focus is different. Right? That's, that's my nonsense rambling?
 
Ian Binns 12:03
Well, I think one thing too, that it's interesting, we're recording this during the pandemic, while still, you know, online learning is still going on in most places. Yeah. You know, schools are now transitioning more, or trying to transition in some places to, you know, four days Face Face one day synchronous or something along those lines. But, you know, there, it's been an interesting as an educator, and as a parent, to hear some of the concerns that my friends or parents have brought up over this past year of, you know, complaints and everything. And even though I know that at times, I sound negative around online learning, I think online learning has a place, if the people who are doing it are trained in how to do it, you know, there's a huge difference. And so I would hate for the past year, to influence any future major decisions around all my learning, because online learning is here, it's been here, like we do it at that higher ed level, and do it do it very well. And there are places for it. And there are great tools that can be used within the science classroom, for example, that make activities and investigations vastly different than they were even when I was coming up. And when I was teaching in high school classroom. So I would, I would absolutely hate it if people ever made the decision of, we can't do online learning, because look how bad it was, during that
 
Rachael Jackson 13:22
look at the crisis crisis and say we'd like come through with stellar colors. When none of us are trained. Therefore, we should make this decision. It's more
 
Ian Binns 13:32
of a let's see what it is we need to do to prepare the teaching force in the future teachers on how to do a better job of using this type of technology, which is very powerful, but then also how to teach our children. So one of the things I tried to do my my classes to help them better understand how to do coding, right. And so there's some great resources out there they can use to then teach children coding, but I can only touch it, like just the tip of it. Because I don't have the expertise to do a whole class on coding, for example. Right, but But anyway, you know, we're talking a lot about how this type of technology and AI can replace things. And so I'm just curious of other thought I just wanted
 
Zack Jackson 14:11
to mention, for
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 14:15
if I can go first because I just want to like kind of respond to something that Rachel said, I think that the point about the distinction between technology and AI is something I was thinking about too, as Ian was talking in the beginning, and and I think that for people who group those things together, like think of AI, or just when people think of AI they think of technology in general. I think the very real fears of this last year is that you know, as much as AI and technology in general can be like an extra step of engagement and stimulation for students to really just like love and immerse themselves in learning. It can also be an extra hindrance and like reason to detach yourself from learning. And I think we just haven't figured out how to actually use it in such a way that it is a tool rather than an obstacle. And I think this last year, and this is, you know, what we were talking about right now is that no one was really trained. And so and the expectation is not just about teachers, it's also about students. And, you know, you have to be trained, and you have to have, like, you have a responsibility as a student as well, when you come into a classroom, whether that's virtual, or in the classroom, and I think a lot of teachers, and I'm just speaking from, like, people I know, who have been in the virtual classroom this last year, who have told stories about how, you know, like, these are people who are great teachers, and, you know, know what they want to communicate to students. But we'll say that when they go into their zoom classroom, everyone has their camera off. And so it's like, you're just kind of speaking into the void. There's no participation. And, you know, I think this is, there's probably, like a lot of people who could be like nodding their head to that right now, because it's, it has just been really common of this last year, with zoom fatigue, and all of that. And so I think it's really easy. Like, even for me, I I, as Rachel was saying, I also like separate the technology from the AI. But even looking at this last year, I'm like, let's just go back to the old days, the traditional classroom, keep technology out.
 
Rachael Jackson 16:41
Go back to chalkboards.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 16:44
Exactly. Because it's too, it's so easy to use it incorrectly. And it's hard to imagine, like what tools we need in place in our education of teachers and of students to like come together in a shared space, even if that shared spaces are virtual, and or a shared space in a classroom where you're relying on a lot of different, like technological platforms or AI tools. Like how how do you do that correctly? And how do you, you know, create a sustainable system of teaching people to do that correctly? So yeah, I'm actually just curious for like, more examples of like, how, since you opened with this, and like, how do you see in your own teaching, this like difference between technology and AI? And like, what are your favorite tools that you have either used yourself or like, seen other colleagues use? What do you what do you think looks just like really effective for future teaching? Hmm.
 
Ian Binns 18:18
I think on that one, Zack, you were gonna say something, do you mind? Give me a minute to really think? Sure.
 
Zack Jackson 18:25
Well, connected to that, actually, that this is where the AI piece can be a real help. Y'all have talked about the importance of individual learning, especially for children, in helping them to identify their strengths, their passions, their growing edges, and then to give them individualized attention, which is really hard to do in a classroom setting, and maybe even a little bit harder to do in a virtual classroom setting. Kids always get left behind in large classroom settings. But like, artificial intelligence driven, individual systems can help identify as kids are doing their own work. Where are those kids growing edges are and where their strengths are, where their passions are, let the kids explore a little bit, you know, play around in a sort of gamified space, where, you know, this kid Wow, they seem to be really drawn to like the science island on this tablet game. And so we know that this kid, maybe will start feeding them more information in this way, you know, more sciency information, or, you know, maybe we'll try to communicate language in a sciency way, you know, to try to utilize their strength in this way. This like, the sort of thing that a teacher if given like seven students would be able to individually identify and find their strengths and help each one live into their best self. But when given 50 students is it's impossible for one person to do. But a really well trained algorithm might be able to, which, you know, then you run into like, well, are we then going to just create a whole world of specialists who are only good at one thing? Because from an early age, they were just trained in one thing?
 
Rachael Jackson 20:22
Wait, I don't know if that would be such? I
 
Zack Jackson 20:23
don't know. Maybe we go back to that. Right. Like, you're a blacksmith, you're
 
Rachael Jackson 20:28
right, that we don't all have to be random. I think
 
Ian Binns 20:30
that would be a society. Yeah, that would be a societal shift. And, and to me, recognizing the value
 
Rachael Jackson 20:36
down with the Enlightenment,
 
Ian Binns 20:38
let's go back to the futile all fields have a contribution to society,
 
Zack Jackson 20:42
right? Like, if you go into your Facebook settings, into your ad settings, you can see what Facebook knows about you. And you can see how specific it knows you your interests, your life, the things you're more likely to engage with. And like and enjoy. Actually, I noticed recently, that Facebook, when it's getting close to my wife's birthday will start giving me ads for things that she would like, which is crazy. And really good. Because I bought a couple of things. And she loved were perfect. Yep. And like, if the algorithms can know you that well, can they then help you to live into your best academic potential, instead of this, like No Child Left Behind one size fits all, sort of standardized testing way of doing it, we now have the technology to allow for individualized educational curriculum.
 
21:44
And, and so
 
Rachael Jackson 21:46
I like guys just gonna, just going to respond a couple of, I think one of the things you were pointing out in that that Zack and Kendra, have both sort of touched on, but I want to say overtly is this idea of not replacing, but in conjunction with, right, the idea that we're not going to just straight up replace teachers, or straight up replace interactions with human to human, right? We're not, it is trying to figure out the best way of being symbiotic with each other the best version of hybrid, right? We've been tossing that around and say, Oh, you know, we've been, again, just from my own life, not not from an educational standpoint, but you know, I, when I teach Torah study, if I have a couple of people in the room and a couple of people online, how is that hybrid going to work? And everyone's like, Well, here are the negatives to it. I said, Okay. And here's where the positives are. Right? And how do we, how do we reframe it so that we're recognizing that this really is going to be a partnership, and we shouldn't go into it with a scarcity mentality or a fear mentality, as we're looking at all these options, I say that with the exception of, you know, the robot that I really want to clean my bathroom, and perhaps the AI that will come along there. And again, switching the language of technology and AI, the AI would know where to put the towel down for where the toothpaste ends up so that it doesn't then have to clean up the toothpaste, but just as to clean up the paper towel. Right? That that would be the AI in the bathroom, which would be amazing, right? So not just that, that sort of carwash. Shower that you're talking about really learning, here's where the mess is made, and let me prevent it. And working together to do that. And I think that if we reframe our idea of, of being in partnership, maybe we'd approach this with a kinder heart.
 
Ian Binns 23:52
Yeah, and that so you know, when we talk about, ya know, I keep using them interchangeably, AI and technology. But one of the things when I teach about how to use technology, so if we kind of more broad for a moment, that I've always emphasized to future teachers is that when using technology don't don't find a piece of technology, or, you know, be a a tool of some sort, you know, as well as an app, you know, something like that. So either, you know, hardware or software and build your lesson around that instead, no, here's, here's what I need to be teaching about to build a connect with my students. Are there things that can use that can help me do that better? Right, so then, and that's how I kind of see the use of things like apps, or that kind of techno AI to help with education is that can we use it as a way to only enhance instructional practices? I like the idea of individual individualized learning. I think that would be great because not everyone learns the same and I know that and that's one of the hardest parts of being a teacher I think is trying to figure out when you've got 20 to 30 people in your classroom, trying to make it individualized for all those people is pretty much impossible. So if this allows for that possibility, then yes, absolutely, let's do that, again, as long as we provide the appropriate training for them. A great, I was just looking up a few things about, you know, examples of AI and education, and one is something that I've benefited from, and that's Duolingo. You know, they the, so I started thinking about Duolingo. And then and not other language apps, I've used to help with my, to improve my German skills. And so it totally you know, how I respond determines what happens next. And it learns based on my ability. So I think things like that are very powerful in the classroom. And I but I remember to, what was it Rosetta Stone when that first came out? I actually was talking with this was several years after it came out with a language professor at UNC Charlotte, asking him, you know, I have the German understanding from growing up, but I need to relearn it. What would you recommend, instead of me taking the traditional courses, which I didn't have time for? And he actually recommended, we'll get Rosetta Stone, you know, we have subscriptions to get that that will really help you. He said, but then acknowledge there are some of the language community who would hate me for that. But that's something that can help because of the type of learning you need, versus going back and starting from scratch. Right. So I think it could truly revolutionize education in that way. As long as as you said, Rachel, we realize it's not replacing the role of the individual in that classroom, especially when they're younger, and you're dealing with younger children, you still need to develop that
 
Rachael Jackson 26:44
connection. Like, exactly, and I'm thinking other AI that that we've used his YouTube and our households. You know, I put a couple of settings on YouTube so that it would know that this is an underage person, please don't show him things that are inappropriate, right? So g and PG type things. And I just let him have it. Like whatever he wants to watch, he can watch. So he loves the squirrel. This thing came out. I don't know how many years ago came out. It resurfaced last year where they did a squirrel obstacle course and then explain the physics of squirrels. And why the jumping of the squirrel and then like the catapulting the squirrel off of something wasn't going to harm it. Fantastic, fantastic video, and he watched this, I don't know, like 10 times. And the next thing it shows are these Rube Goldberg kicks. Can't say that rube. rube. Thank you. We're gonna not say the word. Yes, she's Goldberg machines. And so now he's watching all of these things. Like he, I can't say it, he can't spell it. But YouTube is able to go Oh, you really like the squirrel obstacle course so much here that may show you other things. And now he wants to build one. So it was able to identify that not just watching this video, but to say, Ah, this is what you're interested in. Now we can do that at our in our backyard. I'm not a physics person. So it's going to be for an engineer. So it's going to be very challenging to do anything. But you know, that's what that's what YouTube is for, to help teach me my son's interest to it. So that that's now teaching me, right? I love this. this. I gotta throw something Jewish in here. This quote from from our, from our Talmud, which says, I think I've used this before. From my, from my teachers, I learned some from my colleagues, I learned more and for my students I learned the most like, and I think I think if we go into it with that, that flipped classroom idea, that that students actually have something to teach each other, and the person who, who is in charge. I think AI can then also really help us understand and grow our own learning.
 
Zack Jackson 29:18
So you should get your son watching the kids invent stuff. Okay, for those of you at home, it is kids, kids invent stuff. They, they get submissions from kids for potential inventions, and then they make them and so these are like ideas that kids came up with that then they make real so they're ridiculous things that some kid was like, you know what I need? I need like a doorbell that shoots popcorn. And they're like, let's do it. And it's funny.
 
Rachael Jackson 29:53
Yeah, the one my son wanted to submit. We just haven't done it yet is he likes toast But he's a little scared of the toaster oven. right because the toaster pops up, you don't have to get near the heat but then toaster oven, you got to put your hand in. So what he wanted is for the pancakes that we freeze for him to then have in the mornings for it to take it out of there or the waffles, take it out of the freezer, put it into the toaster oven, turn the toaster oven on and release it and then put it on a plate so that he could just have it.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 30:27
My Kitchen robot can do that for you. That's
 
Zack Jackson 30:29
like,
 
30:30
that's right.
 
Rachael Jackson 30:35
Okay, I'm sorry to jump in one more time, I am going to have to exit our conversation a little bit earlier listeners. Let me know other questions. And we can talk on our Facebook group, not driven by AI driven by us. But sponsored with the technology. I just want to add this from the religious side of things. In addition to the education side of things, at the end of the day, a AI will allow the human connections and the human relationships to thrive more. And that for me is the ultimate goal of AI, both in religious and educational instances so that we can focus on doing doing the jobs that we love and being with the people. That that's more that's most important to us, and how we get there. So that's what I wanted to say. And unfortunately, I have to stay off. But I will listen and talk with you all next time. Yeah,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 31:58
I feel very compelled by the gamification of learning. And like, I because I've recently discovered an app that has been really useful for me last couple of weeks, but I just think there is. So for me, personally, I have always had this like competitive side to my personality that I've never, I've never thought that the competitiveness of myself could be practical, in any way. I just, you know, like, grew up, loved playing games, played a lot of video games with my sisters and just, you know, always liked to win. But as an adult, I just thought like, this is just a side of my personality that's not very useful in, you know, just trying to like sit down and, you know, read articles, and like write papers all day. Maybe, sometimes, but not recently. And then I discovered this app called forest. Have y'all heard of this app. And you basically plant a tree. And I'm using air quotes here, in your virtual garden for your tomorrow and you set a timer, and you press plant, and the timer starts winding down, and your virtual tree starts to grow. So the trick is that you have to keep the app open, so that your tree grows. And if you exit the app, then your tree dies. So the point of the app is to help you stay focused on task and not get distracted and like use your phone to like, do anything. And it's just like the silliest thing that there's like a virtual pine tree growing in my little virtual patch of garden, but I am obsessed with it. I feel so upset whenever I've like killed trees or done group study sessions and someone else has killed the tree. And then it kills everyone's tree like this. It just has really harnessed the competitive side of my personality into something that is very, like practical and useful. And the people who develop these kinds of apps. I just think it's it's genius. Because this is just like a part of human brains that like they've figured out how to hack. And I just know that things like forest because I I'm sure there are a lot of things that I've yet to come across. But this harnessing of our like desire to win and competition that's so fun and stimulating that I think is like the best. The best case of like using AI in the classroom is to find things that can harness that side of human human beings. And like connect it to our learning experience, because then we're just like playing a game. And it's, you know, people like that.
 
Zack Jackson 35:08
I think if I think if I had a Tamagotchi in high school that would die when I stopped doing my homework. Like, I probably would have ended up going to Harvard.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 35:20
Yeah, I mean, this is it.
 
Ian Binns 35:23
So does it work where like, you have to be active on that, like, if because you know, you can multiple apps open the same time, right? Like, is it just that that has to be
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 35:32
open and on your screen, like, if you go to like, your text message
 
35:37
was a different app,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 35:38
it'll, I think it'll say like, your tree will die if you leave or something like that.
 
Ian Binns 35:45
Okay,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 35:46
and you can do it with other people, you can like create a virtual room and press plant, when everyone has the app open on their phone. And if someone gets distracted and exits, then everyone gets a notification like, Joe exited the app and killed everyone's tree. So then you get a chance to shame your friends, for not helping you get a virtual tree in your garden when you've been working
 
Zack Jackson 36:12
gamification. And public shaming. This is like harnessing everything that is most powerful
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 36:21
is so genius,
 
Zack Jackson 36:22
play and shame.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 36:26
Blame shame and competition.
 
Ian Binns 36:29
You talk about accountability. Yeah. How do you know and peer pressure for accountability. So that's interesting. Oh,
 
Zack Jackson 36:38
my goodness, see, I just as you were saying that installed the app on my phone, and I planted a tree. And then as I put my phone back down, I got a notification that I have an email. And I really want to check it, you can't, but I can't, because it'll die.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 36:57
And when the tree dies, they plant the dead tree in your garden as a reminder that like you, the trees day,
 
37:05
so it's always
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 37:06
there as a reminder, haunting you and the rest of your life.
 
37:12
See,
 
Zack Jackson 37:14
see, this is something I love about, about like, the more we learned about human psychology, that we're able to utilize it for good. Like companies like Facebook, use it for financial find, like making money. But a company like this can can utilize that for our own betterment. It's
 
Ian Binns 37:37
awesome. So that's where technology and I think AI can be beneficial. Right? So is the way it can change things for the learner. You know, with teachers, I think if we can do a better job of preparing them to handle it, you need to know how to use these tools effectively in their classroom to make you know, and personalized learning a possibility for every student, I think that'd be great. I do wonder how once this pandemic, like once things are returning to some sense of normal, where schools are fully open around the country? What will be the conversation around this? You know, because as we've done, as I admittedly have done, you're kind of using AI and technology interchangeably. And so, you know, we think about both of those areas, technology and AI and its influence on other areas we've already talked about, especially with religion, church services, religious experiences for people, what will it be like for education going forward? You know, because people will have negative memories of this experience and kind of think that Oh, no, I don't want that. And also, one thing that made me think about to was as our Dr. Scott episode with Dr. Scott and paleontologist and He always talks about the importance of getting kids outside. Right. And so some of the things I've read is talked about personalized learning, online learning, and so them having that full virtual environment for them. But as long as if we, if it's used to the extreme, where it does not encourage going outside anymore, then that could become problematic. Yeah. Right. So I would want to see the tools developed to make sure that that still happens
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 39:27
totally. And that's why I think that they exist like in order for us to really harness the potential of AI, we have to take seriously and really understand the human psychology and just like the evolutionary like state of our humaneness because we we, we will fall into the traps of technology and AI if we don't understand, you know that we're like responsive to certain kinds of stimuli. That, you know, kids need to go outside because of the bodies that they live in. And this, like, has to be part of the conversation. And I, I think it is for a lot of people and a lot of companies like understand that. But I don't think that's, it doesn't seem to me that that's a very widespread conversation when you're talking about, like K through 12, or like college instructors who are just trying to like, figure out how to use zoom in a classroom and, and I think also like, this is also relevant for, you know, talking about like, spiritual or religious implications. I think maybe we had hinted at this at some point, or we're going to talk about this in the future, but like, different kinds of spiritual technologies that rely on AI, and I'm thinking of like, the, the, the meditation headset, camera, or what it's called, I've never, I haven't had the chance to calm one, I think that's it, like, gives you biofeedback so that when you're like, trying to meditate, you can, like, receive the biofeedback and I don't know, I guess like to realize what your body is doing to, like, inhibit you from getting into a deeper meditation state, and take that information about your body to help you do what you're trying to do, which is meditate. And for some people that, like is a very, like spiritual practice. And so it's not just something that's like good for education. It's good for, for people trying to develop habits and practices, whether they're spiritual or not, like we really could, like benefit so much, and just like trying to be human every day. But we have to take seriously the pitfalls.
 
Zack Jackson 42:20
You know, I've also heard of a couple of startups that are like putting together spiritual teachings and meditations and things like that. And then creating a sort of like a Pandora for spiritual teachings, where you put in your religious tradition, and you listen to things or you watch videos, and you either like it, or you don't like it, and it starts to create a sort of personal spiritual profile for you, and then starts feeding you daily. sermons, meditations, whatevers, that more closely match your particular spirituality, because there's so many people who are spiritual but not religious now. And who, because they don't, aren't attached to a religious tradition that will give them content and belief systems and foundations. Now, they're kind of trying to figure it out on their own and do a kind of patchwork which can be really difficult. You know, if I say like, Well, you know, I, I don't know much about Buddhism, but from what I've heard, it sounds good. Where do I start? He's like, Well, here's 1000s of years of tradition, what how do I how do I Pierce this, but a system that uses artificial intelligence to help you to identify your sort of spiritual markers, and then give you content that will help you along that journey? Yeah, there's some potential in that. Hopefully, there's some danger in that as well. In then you are giving your basically turning an algorithm, an opaque algorithm, into your guru, or your priest, or you're putting a lot of trust into something that you don't understand. And you're also trying to sort of skim off the top of very deep ancient wisdom traditions. Which, if you haven't worked through all of the implications, and all of the how deep the root system goes of each individual wisdom tradition, it can be a little dangerous to just kind of cherry pick little things here and there. But the we're kind of just on the cusp of this and so we're we're figuring out Can we move before we can figure out the Should we?
 
Ian Binns 45:04
Well, and I think too, it's one of the things I was just looking at reminding myself on is that there are certain things I think AI could do very well now, that it may be doing some situations, but not everything. And it was talking, you know, one of the examples are talking about for education, for example, is, you know, helping with tasks, administrative type tasks. So like grading, for example, you know, I never make a secret to students that the hardest part of the profession is grading, because it can be very time consuming. Because you want to give solid feedback. And then at times, it's just, it can be very exhausting. And so it's not as fun this is the rest of the job. And so one of the things that it was just talking about here, and I was actually, this was happening this semester, when I've got, like a lot of lesson plans to grade or whatever, especially the first round. And I'm, you know, the feedback I'm giving is very similar. And so I actually was starting to create a document, separate document for myself that I would just and I know faculty to do this, they just put the sample feedback that they give on that document, and then they can go and just copy and paste, and then you change what you need to change, obviously, but that there are some, some some general things that you share with students. And so what but what this what I was just reading was talking about, you know, the hints that like when you're writing a gmail message, the AI that's built into that knows your the way you normally write messages, and so it can finish the sentences for you, then you have the option of accepting that or not. Right. And so this was saying that, you know, what if we had that ability within the learning management systems that universities are using, and also now k 12. But that Google that Gmail autocorrect autofill is not just learned by your inbox, that's a universal one.
 
Zack Jackson 46:51
Google actually has been creating this, this kind of massive AI system that is based on massive amounts of data trolled from the internet, they're they're basically just gathering absurd amounts of data from emails and websites and forums and everything that they can get their hands on in order to train their artificial intelligence to then do things like that, or the autocomplete in search optimizations across the board. The problem with that is, there's a lot of awful things on the internet. There's a lot of awful things on the internet, this podcast not being one of them, but the rest of them are pretty awful. And so without there being some really stringent set of guidelines, you have the potential to create an awful AI. And there's not really any way of testing that if you're just sending it out to gather all the information at once. And the woman who was in charge of Google's artificial intelligence machine learning ethics team, I forget the exact name. She published a paper questioning Google's algorithm and their their data collection, and the ethics behind it. And then she got fired for it. So you know, that Google fire ethics leader, and then the second in command, backed her up and was also questioning this, and then she got fired. And it was not that long ago. No, it wasn't, it wasn't very recent. And Google made up some excuse about malfeasance in the workplace, and whatever. But it's a bad Look, when your ethics department questions your ethics, and then you fire them. Very bad, right? And
 
48:55
what do they know,
 
Zack Jackson 48:55
this is why you have an ethics department to help you be ethical. Google's slogan at one point was Don't be evil. And I feel like they just they just got a lot of money. And then it just, I don't know, that's, that's not as appealing anymore. Don't be evil. So there's, when you're talking about like, big data collection that trains algorithms, it's really important to ask yourself what you're training with. And then what that's doing to us. I mentioned, I think, in this in the last episode, how much our own communication patterns are changing because of autocorrect. And we're becoming more like the machines rather than the machines becoming more like us, because we're learning how to talk based on autocorrect. And that's true in Gmail, and that's true in Microsoft Word as it's doing that now too. And text messages and all kinds of things. Yeah, that's think about like with
 
Ian Binns 49:59
time Right with texting and people use shorthand, you know, and that means lol right? But other ones too, like just shorthand stuff. And IMHO my humble opinion, bola right when I have in the past gotten emails from students who have used the shorthand and irregular email to me, there have been times it hasn't bothered me too much. But there have been times where I've kind of said, you know, well, it's just, it's okay to spell it out. Right, just because it's really not that hard when you're typing fast on a keyboard or something like that, if that's what you're using. But you also think to that, you know, what I remember several years ago, having to talk to some students about that kind of stuff, because they were kind of, you know, commenting on why is it that, you know, professors may not like this or something. And I kind of reminded them, I said, Well, in this department and our program, we are teaching you to teach future people. Part of that is writing and reading. And so that may be one way that those professors look at your ability to write is to, you know, in your, in your regular communication, can you put together a sentence correctly, a paragraph correctly, those are things that we need to know you can do so that you get certified to teach others how to do the same thing. And if everything is written to us is shorthand lingo like that, then it's harder for us to tell.
 
Zack Jackson 51:31
Well, you know, when the first instance of OMG was no 1917, in a letter from Lord Fisher to Winston Churchill, gee OMG Oh, wow.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 51:48
I want to look up all raphel and evolve.
 
Zack Jackson 51:55
The first usage of rafflecopter was in 1312, under and I gotta tell you, I looked that up in a separate tab because if I opened my phone to do it, my tree would die.

Episode 77
In part 11 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmad. He is an Affiliate Associate Professor in the Department of Computer Science at University of Washington and the Principal Data Science Researcher at KenSci. He is also an advisor on AI to the ministry of Science and Technology of Maldives, and has published over 50 research papers on machine learning and artificial intelligence. His research centers on fairness and equity concerning the role of artificial intelligence in healthcare.
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

Episode 76
If you had the power to augment your body so that you could live forever, would you do it? If life-saving technology exists, are we morally obliged to use it? Have we outsmarted natural selection, and do we now have the duty to take homo sapien evolution into our own hands? Living well, dying responsibly, and the wonderfully provocative world of transhumanism on this week's episode of Down the Wormhole. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis

Episode 75
In part 10 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Seth Villegas. He is a PhD student in constructive theology at Boston University. He focuses primarily on how technology affects religious and religious-like ideas. His current research examines transhumanist and other secular communities, asking questions about the future of religious life. We talk about the incoming technological utopia/dystopia, the search for meaning, and the nature of the human soul. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

Episode 74
In our new miniseries, we are talking about artificial intelligence, machine ethics, transhumanism, and what it means to be a human. In our first episode, we're talking about cyborgs and why you already are one. Will technology make us less human and will we even realize that it's happening? Does AI deserve rights? Should we create machines that can feel pain and suffering? How can playing God with machines help us to become better humans today?
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Show Notes
Ship of Theseus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
 
21 grams - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment
 
The pineal gland as the seat of the soul - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pineal-gland/
 
Adam’s Conversation about Cyborbs during Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/multimedia-archive/superheroes-and-everyday-cyborgs/
 
Loebner Prize - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loebner_Prize
https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2020/05/predictive-text-systems-change-what-we-write
 
The Animatrix - https://www.amazon.com/Animatrix-Complete-First-Season/dp/B004G7W9IY
 
Cylon Psychology - https://www.battlestarwiki.org/Humanoid_Cylon#Physiology_and_Psychology
 
Siri's Position On Abortion? A Glitch, Not Conspiracy, Apple Says - https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/12/02/143067993/siris-anti-abortion-tendencies-a-result-of-technology-not-apple-conspiracy
 
The Algorithmic Justice League - https://www.ajl.org/

Episode 73
In part 9 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Matthew Groves. He was once described on NPR as a "one man science-religion reconciliation committee". With a background in Physics and a Master of Divinity, he comfortably navigates both worlds and makes it look easy. We talk about strategic bridge building, climate advocacy, and doing this work in multiple spaces. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

Episode 72
It's only a matter of time before human beings become an extra-terrestrial species. As people make plans for permanent settlements on the Moon, Mars, and beyond, what considerations are being made about what kind of society we want to create? How will we prevent our ancient tribalism from ripping us apart when we are one species on multiple planets? Will we even be the same species anymore? What will happen to future human DNA after multiple generations? Will religion still be a compelling force outside of our home planet? All those questions and several shameless plugs for "The Expanse" on the final episode of our space mini-series. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Show Notes 
 
Things to watch: 
The expanse (on Prime)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanse_(TV_series) 
Away (Netflix)
https://www.netflix.com/title/80214512 
Things to read:
What Will Martians look like? - https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/the-big-questions/mars-colonists-might-evolve-entirely-new-type-human-n708636 
 
Roadmap to space settlements - https://space.nss.org/nss-roadmap-to-space-settlement-3rd-edition-2018-contents/
 
The Mars Society: https://www.marssociety.org/about/
 
Building a new society in space - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130318-building-a-new-society-in-space
 
NASA’s twin study - https://www.nasa.gov/twins-study/fun-facts-and-shareables 
 
Space chaplain Twitter https://twitter.com/ussf_hc 
 
Send artists to the Moon! https://dearmoon.earth/
 
Symphony for broken orchestra - http://symphonyforabrokenorchestra.org/ 
Violins of hope - https://www.violins-of-hope.com/